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Transcript 140A — Tongues and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
HC: Good evening. Welcome to Open Forum.
CALLER: Would you please tell me who in the Bible ever received the baptism of the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues?
HC: Who did? The question is raised, "Who in the Bible received the baptism in the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues?" Well, the 3000 did. They received the baptism in the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues. We know that the jailer of Philippi was saved, and so he received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and he didn't speak in tongues. We know that Lydia and her family were saved, and they did not speak in tongues. All the Old Testament believers, they were saved and they did not speak in tongues.
CALLER: The Holy Ghost fell for the first time on the day of Pentecost. Isn't that true?
HC: Well, yes, you are correct that at Pentecost there was a slight change, in that the believers became qualified to be witnesses at the time they were saved. And this is really why it's spoken of as baptism in the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit came to evangelize the world. And so in a strict sense we would have to say yes, only those who were saved after Pentecost were baptized in the Holy Spirit.
But we only read of three places in the Bible where anybody spoke in tongues, or spoke in a foreign language. The first place is in Acts 2. The disciples spoke in a foreign language at the time the Holy Spirit was poured out. There was no evidence there that they were saved at this point in time, but they had entered into this new program of the Holy Spirit to evangelize the world.
In fact, we see the power that came upon Peter, because he preached one sermon and 3000 were saved. Then in Acts 10 we read about the family of Cornelius, at the time they were saved. Now they were representative of the Gentiles in Judea. The situation in Acts 2 was a representation of those who were in Jerusalem. When Cornelius and his family were saved, they also spoke in a foreign language.
And incidentally, the phenomenon of tongues, in the Book of Acts, is quite different from that which we read about in I Corinthians 12-14, because in 1 Corinthians 12-14 God declared that there was to be an interpreter, and not more than two or three were to speak in a foreign language. It was quite different. The foreign language that was spoken of in the Book of Acts did not require interpretation, because it was simply a foreign language that was understood by others that were there. And there were more than two or three who spoke in this foreign language.
Now in Acts 19 we have the representatives of the world, the twelve Ephesians. They were out in Asia Minor, outside of Judea. And when they were saved, when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, they spoke in foreign languages.
In Acts 2 there were people from 18 different nations, and they understood the disciples in their native tongues. In Acts 10 and in Acts 19 God does not tell us what language it was, but neither was there any interpretation. It just simply says that they spoke in a tongue, and it would have to be in a foreign language.
CALLER: It says they spoke in tongues. And Paul said, "I wish they every one of you spoke in tongues," because he said, "I spoke in tongues more than every one of you," but that it's better to prophesy. So how can you explain that?
HC: Well, you see, it was true that in the days when the Bible was being written, it was a real blessing to receive a direct revelation from God. I'm sure that this must have thrilled these individual members of the church of Corinth, that God had actually given them a message. True, it was in an unknown language, but this really edified them, that God would pick on them to give them a message. And they were asked by God to seek to interpret, so that this message could be made available to the whole congregation.
CALLER: You said a while ago that when a person receives salvation, he receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost, too. But in Acts 19 we find John's disciples, who were already saved, who were already believers. But when Paul asked them, "Have you received the Holy Ghost?" they said they had never even heard that the Holy Ghost had come. So how do you explain that? They were believers. To me it means that when you receive salvation, you are not necessarily baptized in the Holy Ghost.
HC: Your question really is: What are we going to do with this account in Acts 19? Apparently it reads here that these Ephesians had been saved, and yet they had not received the Holy Spirit yet. Does this mean that this is a transaction that takes two steps?
Actually, when we read this, this is apparently what it says. But we must remember, we cannot read the Bible in any part without reading everything else that the Bible teaches also. Now in Romans 8:9 the Bible says that if we do not have the Spirit, we are none of His. If the Holy Spirit has not entered into us, we are not His. We are still unsaved.
Secondly, when the Bible uses the word disciple it does not necessarily mean that we are born again. In John 6:66 it speaks about many of the disciples turning away from Jesus, because they did not like what He was saying. Just because they were disciples doesn't mean that they were born again. Neither does the word believe mean that they're born again. As I pointed out earlier, in Luke 8 we read of those who believed for a while, and then they fell away.
When we just read Acts 19, it seems to be talking about born again believers. But when we read it more carefully, we find that they couldn't have been born again, because the Holy Spirit had not come into them. Therefore they could not have been saved. Now we analyze this, and we see that they were baptized into John's baptism. Now John the Baptist's baptism was the Old Testament baptism. It was outmoded. The ceremonial laws had all been done away with. It was an absolutely incorrect baptism to be administered. It was as if it was putting these men under the ceremonial law again. And therefore they had to be re-baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. And this only happened after Paul came there and acquainted them more clearly with the true Gospel. And that's when salvation came to them.
CALLER: You mentioned John the Baptist. When he was preaching once, he said, "I baptize you in water, to bring you to repentance." "But," he said, "there is one who will come after me who will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire." How do you explain that? And you said that the same day you receive salvation, you're baptized in the Holy Ghost, too. So how do you explain it? What you are saying is different from what John is saying.
HC: What does the Bible mean when John the Baptist said, "I baptize you in water, but there comes one after me who will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire." When we are born again, we are washed of our sins. We experience the washing of regeneration, or the washing of the Word.. The Gospel itself is the water by which we receive the knowledge of salvation.
And we are baptized in fire in the sense that our cleansing is made possible because Christ has become our substitute in enduring the fires of hell on our behalf. We cannot be saved, we cannot be right before God, unless we have paid the penalty for our sins, which the Bible calls for, and which is an eternity in hell. Hellfire must have been endured.
Now Christ endured it on our behalf, and so we are like those who have come out of hell. We have endured eternal fire, and now there is no longer any condemnation that comes against us. And this is to be provided by the Lord Jesus Christ. He went to the cross in order to do this on our behalf.
CALLER: In Revelation 22:18 it says, "If any man adds to the words of this book, I will add to him the plagues written therein." But verse 19 says, "And if any man takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life." So how do you explain verse 19?
HC: How do we explain Revelation 22:19 where it speaks of those who take away from the book of this prophecy?
The Bible is the whole and complete infallible Word of God. Now if I, for example, go through the Bible and pick and choose, if, let's say, I take a verse and say, "I like this verse, but I don t like some other verses that contradict it, and so I'm only going to take that verse and I'm going to build my doctrine from that verse," in that case I am taking away from the Bible. Or if I say that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are simply a parable of some kind, that they're not actually history, and I won't accept them as the divine Word of God, then I am taking away from the Word of God.
CALLER: To me you're taking away speaking in tongues from the Bible. Wouldn't that be a way for your name to be taken out of the Book of Life?
HC: The question is raised: If the Bible speaks about speaking in tongues, and now we say that that's not possible, isn't that taking away from the Word of God? Well, let's see. In the Old Testament we read that the males were to go three times a year to Jerusalem, to offer sacrifices. In fact, in the New Testament, Jesus did that, and the disciples did that. Now we don't do that any longer. Are we taking away from the Word of God?
CALLER: But Jesus said that we are not under the Law anymore. Sacrifice was just a matter of the Law, the way they were supposed to do it, but now we don't have to offer any sacrifices. I think the only sacrifice we offer is our own body, our own flesh.
HC: All right. Now how do you know that? How do you know that we're not under the Law?
CALLER: The Bible says it.
HC: Now that's exactly right. The Bible says it. In other words, in one place the Bible says that we are to do certain things, and in another place the Bible explains further that there comes a time when we are not to do certain things, the very same things. We've let the Bible be its own interpreter.
Now in one place in the Bible it speaks about tongues as a possibility, and it relates the experiences of those in the church in Corinth. But in another place the Bible says that we're not to add to the words of this book once the Bible is completed. And so the Bible has instructed us that this can't be possible any longer. We let the Bible show us and guide us. And so we're not taking away from the Word at all. We're actually making certain that we have the whole Word of God before us.
CALLER: What should we put in place of speaking in tongues? The only way they could know that someone received the baptism of the Holy Ghost is that everybody could hear him speak in tongues. The reason people knew that the 120 on the day of Pentecost received something was that they were heard to be speaking in tongues. And the same with John's disciples. The only way people knew that they had something new, something different, is because they heard them speaking in tongues. Otherwise nobody would know they had received the Holy Ghost.
HC: All right. Now let me ask you. In other words, you're wondering, what evidence is there then of salvation? Let me ask you. When the 3000 were saved, you see, there is only one baptism, the Bible teaches. There is only one baptism. The Bible says, in Ephesians 4, there is only one faith, one baptism. And that baptism is baptism in the Holy Spirit.
CALLER: But look at Hebrews 6.
HC: What do you mean Hebrews 6?
CALLER: I think in Hebrews 6 He spoke of "baptisms," plural, many.
HC: Oh, well, there were Old Testament ablutions, there were Old Testament washings. There was the baptism of John the Baptist. This is what Hebrews 6 has reference to. The Bible has a lot to say about washings, about ablutions. The word baptism is the word washing, or purification.
But when we get to the New Testament, and we're talking about what salvation is, in Ephesians 4 the Bible says there is one baptism. Now that is the washing that occurs at the time we are saved, at the time that we enter into the work of the Holy Spirit, as He evangelizes the world, because at that time we are filled with the Holy Spirit. We are qualified to be a witness.
Now our water baptism has no substance in itself. It is simply a shadow or a reflection of the Spirit baptism that occurred at the time we were born again. And that's the only baptism that there is. There is only that one baptism.
CALLER: Are you talking about baptism in water or the Holy Spirit?
HC: The Holy Spirit saves us, not the water. The water does not save us. The Holy Spirit saves us.
CALLER: Is it Ephesians 4:4, where he said there is one body? What verse is that?
HC: In Ephesians 4, he's saying this in verse 5: "There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism."
CALLER: One Holy Ghost baptism. But in Hebrews he wasn't referring to anything from the Old Testament. When he talks about baptisms in Hebrews, he didn't say how many.
HC: No. In Hebrews 6 we simply have an outline of everything that God teaches about salvation. We have the whole Old Testament that speaks about salvation. We have the whole New Testament that speaks about salvation. The Book of Hebrews has a lot to say about the Old Testament laws, and how they were pointing to salvation. All of this is in view here in Hebrews 6. The whole Scripture actually is in view. And the Scripture teaches about many ablutions: the washing of the priest in the temple, the baptism of Jesus, and of course the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which is the New Testament baptism. But when we get to Ephesians 4, it cuts through all this and says, now when we get all done with this, when we're going to look at what salvation is, there is one body, there is one Spirit, there is one hope, there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God.
Now you asked an earlier question, "What is the evidence of salvation, if there is no speaking in tongues?" Actually, what is ever the evidence of salvation? The outward evidence is non-existent. There is no outward evidence. The only evidence is what has happened within the heart of a man, in that he has become born again, in that he finds in his life an earnest desire to live for Christ.
Now when the 3000 were saved in Acts 2, there was no outward evidence that they were saved, but they were saved. They didn't speak in tongues. The Bible doesn't say that at all.
CALLER: That's the only evidence they had of receiving the Holy Ghost.
HC: No, that is not taught anywhere in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible is that taught. There are gospels that teach that. I admit that. There are gospels that teach that. But that is not the Gospel of the Bible. When the jailer of Philippi was saved he didn't speak in tongues. When the Ethiopian eunuch was saved, he didn't speak in a tongue, when Lydia was saved, she didn't speak in a tongue.
CALLER: They didn't record that, but if we just build on Acts 19, okay. In Isaiah 28:11 it says, "With stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to these people." What does that mean?
HC: Well, now you've come to a very, very ominous passage. You see, in I Corinthians 14 God has something terrible to say, right in the context of this phenomenon of the people at Corinth speaking in a tongue. He says in verse 20, "Be babes in evil," or "Be babes in malice." Now why would He say that? That's a terrible thing to put in here, right when He's talking about what appears to be a joyful thing, of receiving information from God in an unknown language. He says, "Be babes in malice, but in thinking be mature. In the Law it is written, By men of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people. And even then they will not listen to Me, says the Lord." Thus tongues are a sign (or a miracle) not for believers, but for unbelievers, while prophesy is not for unbelievers but for believers.
Now let's go back to the Law then to find out what God refers to. Let's first of all go to Deuteronomy 28, because that is the initial reference. And then we'll look at Isaiah 28.
Now in Deuteronomy 28 God is talking to Israel before they went into the land of Canaan. And in verse 47 He is warning them what will happen if they're not satisfied with the salvation He has given them. He says in verse 47 of Deuteronomy 28: "Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, by reason of the abundance of all things [in other words, you weren't satisfied with what I gave you], therefore, you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and in want of all things. And He will put His yoke of iron upon your neck, until He has destroyed you. The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you do not understand, a nation of stern countenance, who shall not regard the person of the old or show favor to the young. And they shall destroy you."
In other words, God is saying, "If you are not satisfied with My salvation, then I'm going to come against you with people whose language you do not understand, and they're going to destroy you as a judgment of Mine."
Now this was re-emphasized in Isaiah 28. In Isaiah 28:11 we read, "Nay, but by men of strange lips and with an alien tongue the Lord will speak to this people, to whom He has said, This is rest. Give rest to the weary. And this is repose." In other words, the true rest that God is offering is the Gospel of salvation. "But they would not hear. Therefore the word of the Lord will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept", that is, the word of the Lord will be their judge. It is the Sword of the Spirit to judge them. "here a little, there a little, that they may go and fall backward, and be broken and snared and taken."
Now God is saying that because Israel would not listen to the Word of God, He would bring a people with strange lips and with an alien tongue against them, to judge them. And that nation was the nation of Babylon, the nation that they played the harlot with. And eventually Babylon destroyed Israel. They are the nation that came with a foreign language.
This is re-emphasized in Jeremiah 5. In verse 15 we read, "Behold, I am bringing upon you a nation from afar, 0 House of Israel, says the Lord. It is an enduring nation. It is an ancient nation, a nation whose language you do not know, nor can you understand what they say. Their quiver is like an open tomb. They are all mighty men. They shall eat up your harvest and your food. They shall eat up your sons and your daughters. They shall eat up your flocks and your herds. They shall eat up your vines. They shall destroy with the sword."
In other words, these are the references that God is making in I Corinthians 14. And He's saying that God, because God is the author of the Word of God, even though He used the apostle Paul to speak, is saying, "If you aren't satisfied with the Gospel I give you, I'm going to come against you with a people with a language you do not understand. And it's going to come against the unbelievers in the church, not the believers. They're going to be interested in the true Word of God, in prophecy. But the unbelievers, it's a miracle for the unbelievers. And I'm going to destroy you by it." That is what God is teaching.
CALLER: Only unbelievers spoke in tongues at that time?
HC: No. I'm saying this, that God set up a testing program. Now in the Old Testament, in the Garden of Eden, God set up a testing program. He put a tree in the Garden, and this was to reveal whether Adam and Eve would be faithful in being obedient to God. And of course they failed the test. Eventually they ate of the tree they should not have eaten.
Now in I Corinthians 12-14, God effectively has set up an identical testing program. In the church of Corinth 2000 years ago, there was a legitimate phenomenon of tongues, in which God actually spoke to these people in an unknown language. Okay, that's recorded for us. But that is going to be used as a testing program. That is, it will be misused at the end of time, as an assault on the church, to snare people away from the true Gospel. And by means of this, God will bring judgment against the church, because they have not been satisfied with the Gospel that He has offered them. He is going to bring an assault against the church. This is the ominous, the terrible implication of I Corinthians 14:21.
CALLER: As far as I can understand, you are against speaking in tongues, right? What about verse 39?
HC: Your question is, In I Corinthians 14:39, where it says that we're not to forbid speaking in tongues, how are we to look at that? Well, in the church at Corinth, obviously they were not to forbid speaking in tongues, because it was a legitimate possibility in that day. But the Bible itself indicates that it no longer is possible because of what we read in Revelation 22:18.
So if you want to speak in a tongue, that is your privilege. God allows people to go their own way in the world, and people do all kinds of things. You can speak in a tongue, you can look for visions, you can do anything that you wish. You can build your gospel any way that you would like to. That is your privilege.
But if I'm going to be true to the Word of God and let it be circumscribed by the Word itself, by the Bible itself, then I personally would never never want to be looking for some kind of a message from God in an unknown language or in a known language, because then I would know I am going contrary to the Bible. I want to listen only to the Bible as the revealed Word of God.
Thank you so much for calling.