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Transcript 246A
Will the Church Go Through the Tribulation?
HC: Good evening. Welcome to Open Forum.
CALLER: Good evening. I would like to know, do you think that the church is going to go through the tribulation?
HC: The question that has been raised is, do I think the church will go through the tribulation? Let me ask you this question. Those people who died in the days of Nero, by being tied to a post; and burned to death as blazing torches, do you think they went through tribulation? Those people who were persecuted at various times in history, and tortured to death rather than deny the Lord Jesus Christ, did they go through tribulation? Those people who are in concentration camps today, because they would not deny the faith, are they going through tribulation?
You see, the Bible teaches that it is very normative for believers to undergo tribulation. Jesus said in John 16: "In the world you will have tribulation." Now why does a Christian have tribulation in the world? You see, the world is enslaved to Satan, and the world essentially and substantively is in enmity against Christ and therefore against His Kingdom, of which we are citizens when we are born again.
And so the world will lash out at believers and make life difficult for them in one way or another. And frequently this will develop into heavy persecution and troubles of one kind or another. So we're not at all surprised that again and again the Bible speaks of the fact that we will undergo tribulation.
Now the Bible does teach that as we approach the end, wickedness will multiply. And as wickedness multiplies, obviously tribulation for the believer will also magnify. And so the Bible says that there will be great tribulation, in verse 21 of Matthew 24, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." Now notice what it says: "And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened."
Now who are the elect? The elect are the born again believers, those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are chosen in Christ before the foundations of the earth. Now during the final tribulation period, there is language in the Bible that suggests there will be no one being saved during this period, because the antagonism of the world will be such that the true Gospel will be hard to find.
But the believers will be here. The elect are the believers. Now notice verse 29 of Matthew 24: "Immediately after," and incidentally, you'll notice it says, "For the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened." You see, tribulation ordinarily is directed against the believers, because they are the ones that Satan is most concerned about, in trying to harass and trying to silence. Notice in verse 9 of Matthew 24: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death. And you will be hated by all nations for My Name's sake." It's speaking about the believers. We are the ones who are hated by all nations, are we not? The true believers are the ones who are the targets of Satan's venom, the targets of Satan's antagonism. They are the ones that are hated by all nations.
CALLER: I thought that the elect were the Jewish people.
HC: But the Bible here is not talking about the Jews. It's talking about the elect.
CALLER: But the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews.
HC: You see, if we're going to decide that the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore is not normative for me because I'm a Gentile, and then if we're going to decide that the Book of Romans is not written to me, but to the church at Rome, and therefore it's not normative for me, pretty soon I don't have a Bible, do I?
CALLER: Each book of the four Gospels was written to certain people. Matthew was written to the Jews, Mark was written to the Romans, and then Luke was written to the Greeks.
HC: Well, no. Actually, the Bible teaches that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." You mentioned that Mark was written to whom? The Romans? Now let's look at Mark then, if you don't care for Matthew. Let's look at the Gospel of Mark.
I'm reading from Mark 13:19: "For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will be. And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect . . ."
Now you didn't like Matthew 24, because you thought that was just for the Jews. But now I'm reading from Mark 13. And you see, God says exactly the same thing. The Bible is speaking to me, and it's speaking to you, whether we're a Jew or whether we're a Gentile. When we look at the word elect, we have to see how God uses that word, and we find that He's talking about those who are chosen in Christ, or elect in Christ, from the foundations of the world, to be saved. They are the born again believers at any time in history. And some of these are Jews, and a great many are Gentiles.
In Romans 11, it speaks in verse 5, where it's particularly concerned with the nation of Israel, and it says there that there is a remnant chosen by grace out of the nation of Israel, a remnant "elect" by grace. But it also speaks of Gentiles being elect, you see.
And so the Bible is simply teaching that when we get near the end, Satan will be loosed, wickedness will multiply. And those things that are normative, that is, a world that essentially does not care for the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, a world that is at times bitterly antagonistic to the cause of Christ, so that it is engaging in open persecution, all of these things will become even more greatly manifested in the closing years of the earth's history. But "for the sake of the elect," God says, both in Matthew 24 and in Mark 13, "those days will be shortened."
And then it says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened." And now I'm reading in Mark 13, if you'd rather have me read there: "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will he shaken." Now this obviously is the language of the end of the universe. It's beginning to collapse, beginning to fall apart.
"And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds, with great power and glory." And what is the first thing that He will do, as all of the nations see Him? In Matthew 24 it's expanded. It says, "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."
And what will be the first thing He will do? Verse 27 of Mark 13: "Then He will send out the angels and gather His elect from the four winds," that is, the believers who are to be raptured. They will be caught up in the air to be with Christ. All of the believers will go to be with Christ because it is the end of time.
Now this language is very clear that the believers will go through the tribulation. Now this is taught many places in the Bible. We don't have to confine our understanding of this just to Matthew 24 or Mark 13. We can find this kind of a truth in many places, as, for example, Jesus teaches that the resurrection of the believers is the Last Day. Well, the Last Day is the end of time.
CALLER: God indwells believers, and I believe that the Holy Spirit is the restraining force now. And do you believe that the Holy Spirit can indwell people when there is great tribulation?
HC: The question is, if the Holy Spirit is the one who restrains sin, and if He indwells believers, which He indeed does, could there be the presence of the Holy Spirit while there is great tribulation going on?
First of all, let's remember that the Holy Spirit is Eternal God. And God always is present in the world. He was present at creation, He was present throughout the Old Testament period, where we read again and again of the Holy Spirit. He was present while Jesus was ministering on earth. And it is also true that He indwells the lives of the believers.
Right up until the end, God the Holy Spirit will be present. Now it doesn't mean, however, that He will continue to restrain sin as He has throughout time. The Bible teaches, in Matthew 15, that out of the heart of man comes murder and adultery and thefts, and all these terrible things. Or in Jeremiah we read that the heart of man is desperately wicked.
Now if God did not restrain natural unsaved man from sin, this world would destroy itself in the shortest possible time, if man just did entirely what came naturally. But in order that this world will go to its predetermined end, God restrains sin. And He does this completely apart from the fact that He indwells born again believers. God restrains sin in unsaved man directly, as He did for example, in the life of Abimelech, in the days of Abraham, who otherwise would have taken Sarah and ravished her. But God said, "No, I have kept you from that."
God restrains sin because He is God. Now when we read in II Thessalonians 2:7, which I think you're alluding to, where it says that "He that restraineth much be taken out of the way," God is simply saying that He will not restrain sin as He has in the past. He will allow the world to become more wicked than ever.
Now this will obviously increase tribulation for the believers, because they are ultimately the target of the sinful activity of Satan. But for their sake, those days will not go on and on. God will shorten them, so that there still will be believers alive when He returns.
CALLER: Do you believe in the rapture?
HC: Absolutely I believe in the rapture. The Bible teaches, and by the rapture we mean, I think, the time when Christ comes, and those who have not died, and who are born from above believers, will instantly be changed into their resurrected bodies and be caught up in the air to be with Christ.
CALLER: "The dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds."
HC: What about the verse that says that the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who remain will be caught up together with them in the air? That is I Thessalonians 4:17, I believe. And there Christ is only speaking about the believers. He is simply teaching that the rapture of the believers will be a simultaneous event with the resurrection of the body of believers, that is, those who have died previously and who in the meanwhile have been living and reigning with Christ in Heaven in their soul existence. They will come with Him, and their bodies will be resurrected simultaneously and be caught up in the air simultaneously with the rapture of the believers who are living.
Now if you go on from I Thessalonians 4 into I Thessalonians 5, which is part of the same context, there God speaks about the unbelievers. And there He says that He will come like a thief in the night for them. When they think that all is well, that there is peace and security, then sudden destruction will come upon them. But there He also says that Christ will not come as a thief in the night, for you, believers, because you are children of the day.
CALLER: That's the Jewish people, in the tribulation. They'll say, "Peace and safety," and then sudden destruction will come upon them. That's talking about the Jewish nation, not the Christians.
HC: No, it's talking about the unsaved of the world. How does the Bible use the word destruction? "Broad is the way the leads to destruction." It's not talking about the Jewish people in I Thessalonians 5. It's talking about the unsaved of the world. They are the ones that are subject to perish, to eternal damnation. They are the ones for whom Christ will come as a thief in the night.
You see, the Bible is teaching one central truth, and that is that the world goes along, as Matthew 13 teaches, the wheat and the tares continue right up until the end. And then Christ comes. And at that time the universe begins to collapse. At that time the believers are raptured. At that time the graves are opened, and all the people who have died are resurrected. And at that time we have Judgment Day. And once we catch that, then everything begins to fit into focus.
CALLER: So then you don 't believe in the rapture before the tribulation.
HC: Not a bit. There's no possibility of it. I don't know of any language in the Bible that would suggest this.
CALLER: All right. Thank you very much.
HC: You're welcome. Good night.
Let me make a suggestion which may be helpful. And I say this very, very kindly. I'm sure that I've said this before, but let me say it again. Particularly when we talk about the rapture, and talk about tribulation, you will hear me say things that make you say, "My, oh my, I can't believe it, that that's what the Bible teaches. The fact is, I'm sure that I've read in the Bible something quite different from what you are saying." For example, when I say believers will go through the final tribulation period, everything about you is saying no, no, no, no. "I read something different in the Bible."
Now one of the problems is this. There are a number of Bibles on the market today which have within them marginal notes. One of those Bibles, for example, is the Berkeley Version of the Bible. Now the Berkeley Version of the Bible is a rather good translation. But in the margin you will find the date given, and you will find explanatory notes. Now this is very unfortunate. It's very unwise, because these explanatory notes are the work of the translators. They're not the divine Word at all.
Many Bibles, for example, have in their margins the date of creation as 4004 BC. And this has been drilled into us because we've seen it in the margin of our Bibles. Now that's no more a Biblical statement than Time magazine is a Biblical statement, or the Examiner, or any newspaper is a Biblical statement. That is simply the opinion of a man by the name of Usher, who worked out a time plan. And it happens to be a very incorrect time plan. But some of the editors or publishers of Bibles have put this in the margin. And therefore a lot of people believe that they have read somewhere in the Bible that the world was created in 4004 BC.
Now this is what happens when notes are put in the margin of a Bible. We involuntarily begin to accept those notes as being part of the Holy Canon. And yet under no circumstance are they. The fact is, if you are asked, "Is this note infallible?" you off course would admit, "Of course it's not infallible." But because it is on the page of the Bible you have accepted it involuntarily as being part of the Holy Canon.
Now the New Jerusalem Bible is produced this way, with marginal notes. And there is another Bible that has had a profound effect on the lives of many many believers in the United States, and that is the Scofield Bible. Now the Scofield Bible is the King James Bible. It's a very excellent reputable translation. But in the margin you will find certain explanations. And if you use the Scofield Bible, you will find that repeatedly, when you are reading the text of the Bible, and you find that it's kind of hard to understand, the first thing that you do (and you'll have to admit that this is the way it is) is read the explanation on the bottom of the page. And you'll say, "Oh, oh, this is the way we're to understand this."
Now unfortunately those explanations are not always correct. Sometimes they are, but frequently they are not. But if you use a Bible like the Berkeley Version, or the Scofield Bible, or one of these others, for a long time, and you have repeatedly read these marginal notes, pretty soon you have a very difficult time separating in your mind what you read in the notes and what you read in the text. All you know is that it was in the Bible.
The fact is, there are even some ministers who go so far as to say, the only Bible to get is a Scofield Bible. Now why do they say that? Because they want your thinking to be conditioned by those notes in the margin. Now it's fine to read commentaries. But when we read a commentary, then we know that it's not the Bible. We know that it was a separate book, and it's the work of man, and it is fallible.
But when we read something repeatedly on the same page as the text of the Bible itself, we pretty soon have a very difficult time separating what is the Bible and what is not the Bible. And so on this program, again you will hear me say things concerning Christ's return that just flabbergast you, to use a word. It really upsets you. "The Bible doesn't say that! He's wrong. The believers don't go through the tribulation. The rapture could occur at any time. I read it in the Bible."
Well, did you read it in the Bible? Did you really read that in the Bible? Or did you read it in the notes at the bottom of the page somewhere? And has this become impressed on your memory as being part of the Holy Canon? This is the big question, you see.
And the only way you can test this is to say, "Well, okay. I better check. I better really check. Did I read it in the Bible? If I really believe that the believers won't go through tribulation, I'd better try to find those verses that teach that. If I really believe that the Gospel of Matthew is only for the Jews, I'd better find that in the Bible."
Just because a commentator said this, or a theologian said that, that doesn't prove anything at all. I've got to find it in the Bible. The Bible is the guidebook. And I don't know personally anything in the Bible that tells me that the Book of Matthew is for the Jews, and it's not for me. Then I would have to conclude that the Gospel of John, Chapter 3, was for Nicodemus. He was a Pharisee. He was a Jew. It's not for me.
And you begin to immediately sense that this will lead nowhere. Then it means that we finally end up without a Bible. I'm pleading here that we recognize that if we have used a Bible with marginal notes (and I say this kindly, I don't say this to press you or to put you on the spot, or to call names, or to do anything), then you're going to be troubled by the fact that your knowledge of the scripture is going to be mixed up between what you read in the Bible and what you read in those notes. And it's very difficult to separate.
I personally would not like to use a Bible with marginal notes, because I don't want to have that kind of thing happening. I want to know what the Bible says, and oh yes, I read a commentary over there. But that was a commentary. That was not in the Bible. If you've used a Bible with marginal notes, it's going to be very difficult to sense when you're really hearing truth, because you're going to be evaluating it against what you read in those marginal notes, as well as what you read in the Bible. And so you do not have a clear standard by which to measure. And you're going to have to do the hard work of beginning to individually check out these truths and see what the Bible really says.
I personally would never recommend a Bible with marginal notes. Even though you may have a high confidence in many of these who have written these marginal notes, and even though they may be right part of the time, nevertheless they under no circumstances are infallible as the Bible is infallible. And I don't want to read from them on the same page as the Bible, because I might be picking up their ideas as being infallible, and accepting their ideas as the Bible. And that would be very unfortunate. Then I'm not able to really know truth any longer.
Well, I thought this might be helpful to someone.