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Transcript 261A — The Sequence of End-Time Events
HC: Good evening. Welcome to Open Forum,
CALLER: Could you explain your version of what the Millennium is. What's the purpose of it? And then also I wanted to ask you, if you feel that we'll be raptured at the end of the tribulation, then obviously we're not in the tribulation right now, if you read the description of it. Then the Lord won't be taking us home until after the tribulation, so why should we be looking up for our rapture now? Do you understand what I mean?
HC: Your question really deals with, What is really the sequence of events? What are we looking for? You've used three terms. You've used Rapture, Tribulation and Millennium.
Now in your judgment, what is the sequence of events?
CALLER: I've always been taught, and even in good Bible studies, and I've even found out for myself from the scripture, that we would be raptured before the tribulation began. And this has always been my impression. And I'm very interested in what you've said about it, and this is why I'm asking more about it.
I understand that we would be raptured, and there would be the tribulation, and at the end of the tribulation the millennium would come, and Christ would reign for the thousand years. But I understand now that you don't believe that way, because you believe in the symbolical terms in the scriptures. But ministers in the pulpits today are saying, "Look up and be ready, because Christ can come at any time." You know, we should just be ready. And even Paul said that it could be today. Well, if it could be today, we aren't going to be raptured until . . .
HC: Paul did say that it could be today?
CALLER: He said that he was looking for, I really am not sure on the scripture.
HC: No, he didn't say today. Now you see the phrase that because I look at the symbolical meaning of scriptures, therefore I conclude that the rapture cannot be immediately, whereas those who hold that the rapture could be immediately do not look at it symbolically.
Actually, no one reads the Bible without some symbolism. There are certain phrases that have to be understood symbolically. And there are other passages that must be understood literally.
Now when we talk about the timing of the Rapture, there is no symbolism applied. The Bible is very very plain as to the timetable of the Rapture, that it is the Last Day, that it is the end of time. There isn't any possibility of coming to any other conclusion. And I'll be very happy to go through the scriptures, to show this. And if it is the Last Day, the end of time, at the time the universe is collapsing, on Judgment Day, then it means that there cannot be a thousand years after that. There cannot be a millennium of time after that, because that would be a contradiction in terms altogether.
When you ask for the purpose of the millennium, first of all we have to decide, when is the millennium? Now the only place in the Bible where we read about the thousand years is in Revelation 20. And we find a number of references to a thousand years in the first seven or eight verses.
Now we can't tell from Revelation 20 when this thousand years will be, nor can we accept that we know it will conclude with Judgment Day. We know that, because at the end of thousand years Satan will be loosed and then he'll be cast into the lake of fire. And so that's Judgment Day. We know that from Revelation 20. And we also know from Revelation 20 that whatever God means by this binding of Satan, he is not completely removed from the scene, because in verse 4 of Revelation 20 John sees in this vision the souls of those who had been beheaded, and they lived and reigned with Christ during this thousand years.
Now it's speaking here of disembodied souls: "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded." And so this indicates that whatever God means by the binding of Satan, and He does give a clue in Revelation 20, because He says that he will be bound so that "he will not deceive the nations." That's one clue He gives.
Secondly, in Revelation 20, He indicates that he'll still be able to martyr people, because there are people being beheaded. But it's no victory for Satan. In their souls (the souls of these who had been beheaded) they lived and reigned with Christ. And so they went to Heaven.
CALLER: Now I was always taught that the souls of those who had been beheaded means those who will be beheaded during the tribulation. And they're supposed to be watched, and then they come back to life after the tribulation.
HC: It's not talking in Revelation 20 about the tribulation. It doesn't mention tribulation. It simply says, "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded." Now to use a parallel phrase, "I saw the hand of the man." Did I see the whole man? No, I only saw his hand. "I saw the hand of the man who was killed." All I saw was his hand. "I saw the souls of these who had been beheaded." John only sees their souls. Now disembodied souls don't live and reign on earth, do they?
So now we've got some questions already developing, haven't we? We know that the millennium ends with Judgment Day. And we know that whatever it means by Satan being bound, it does indicate that he'll still be able to martyr. And since those who are martyred are reigning in their souls, than it's talking about them going to Heaven, because this is what the rest of the Bible teaches. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," in Heaven. So that gives us some clues about what this millennium might be.
Now when we look at the first three verses where it talks about the binding of Satan, the first thing we have to do, like we have to do with all of the Bible, is to study the rest of the Bible to see if there's anything at all that might possibly relate.
Some people, unfortunately, who say, "We take the Bible literally," what they really mean by that, without thinking it through, is that they read a sentence, and it makes sense as it stands, and without checking further in the Bible to see if that phrase is used in some other fashion in the Bible, they accept it as it stands. In other words, they really are saying, "We don't interpret scripture by scripture. We let scripture make sense as it stands by itself." And that can't be, of course. We never can do that. We've always got to let the Bible interpret itself. And it always will, if we can be patient enough, and really search it out.
Now in Jude 6, and in II Peter 2:4, we find language that is very very similar to the first three verses of Revelation 20. In Jude 6 we read, "And the angels [and remember, Satan is a fallen angel] . . . And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their dwelling have been kept by Him in eternal chains, in the nether gloom, until the judgment of the Great Day." Now that's in the past tense, and it was written a few decades after the cross. We can't tell where Revelation 20 was referring to, but Jude was written in the past tense, a few decades after the cross. And it's saying that they have already been put in chains, in the nether gloom, until the judgment of the Great Day. Whatever God means by this language, it was already accomplished.
Now in II Peter 2:4 we read the same thing, the past tense again. "For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment, He did not spare the ancient world but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness." In other words, he's citing things that have already been accomplished. And Peter is writing in the past tense, a few decades after the cross.
And so we know that whatever God means by the language of Revelation 20:1, it was already an accomplished fact a few decades after the cross. And so that means, if the end of the thousand years of judgment Day, or near to Judgment Day, and if we've already had over 1900 years since the cross, a thousand years has got to be understood in a symbolical fashion.
It could be a literal fashion, if we were only in the year 800 AD, or something, and a thousand years had not transpired as yet. But because we know that more than 1000 years have passed since the cross, we know that the millennium or the thousand years must be understood in a symbolical fashion, as God frequently does in the Bible, as He speaks, for example, of His love continuing for a thousand generations. There it's symbolical, you see.
And so we know that the beginning of Revelation 20 had to occur some time before a few decades after the cross, and it would end some time just before Judgment Day. In other words, it's the whole New Testament period: the millennium.
CALLER: We're living in the millennium now?
HC: We're right near the end of the millennium. Jesus said in John I6, "In the world you will have tribulation." Tribulation or affliction is normative for believers throughout time. That is constant. Now the increase in tribulation right near the end of time, that Christ spoke about in Matthew 24:21, "And then there will be great tribulation, such as this world has never known," will be simultaneous with the end of the thousand years.
Remember, Revelation 20 says that Satan will be loosed from his prison, and he will deceive the nations again, and he will gather them, Gog and Magog, from the four corners of the earth, to attack the camp of the saints or the Beloved City. Now that is talking about what will cause this great tribulation in Matthew 24:21. It will be Satan's attempt to silence the Gospel. And he will be successful in doing this.
He will marshal all the nations. In other words, he will come with political power, through such ideologies as Communism. He will come with social pressures, cultural pressures. And more successfully then ever, he will come through other gospels.
We can see it in all kinds of activity today, as other gospels proliferate, and as they are getting more and more successful. I really believe we're at that time when Satan is being loosed. And this is why we see such a tremendous increase in wickedness in the world, both in the church and outside of the church.
CALLER: Then we'll be able to identify the antichrist?
HC: I believe Satan himself is the antichrist, and he is already coming. Now in John 2 it says that there will be antichrists who come out from among you. Let me read that language, because it really tells us what an antichrist is.
In I John 2:18: "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us [in other words, they were fellow believers], but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us."
In other words, antichrist is particularly the activity of Satan in working through false prophets and false christs who will rule in the church. This is what Matthew 24:24 is speaking about: "False prophets and false christs will arise with signs and wonders, to lead astray if possible even the elect."
CALLER: That's maybe where the Satan worshippers come in.
HC: Well, that's one rabid form of this. But this isn't what Jesus warns about. When He talks about the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, in Matthew 24:15, He's talking about other gospels that look so holy that even the elect, the true believers, would be deceived, if that were possible.
CALLER: If what you say is true, that we will not be raptured until the end, when Jesus comes to take us . . .
HC: Let's look at the timing of the Rapture, for just a moment. He cannot come now. Those who say that He may come tonight are doing so without Biblical validation, in my judgment.
CALLER: Jesus Himself said that no one knows the day or the hour or the time.
HC: Yes. We may not know the day or the hour. But that doesn't mean that we can say that He will come at any moment. Even God Himself warns, in II Thessalonians 2. Notice this language. A lot of times we fail to realize the significance of what God is saying. He says in verse 1 of II Thessalonians 2: "Now concerning the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet Him [Aha! He's saying that we will assemble to meet Him], we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord are one and the same." And we're going to see that it's the Judgment Day. It's all one and the same.
CALLER: But I thought it was in the twinkling of an eye.
HC: His coming is not in the twinkling of an eye. The phrase, "the twinkling of an eye," has to do with the changing of the believers sin-cursed body to his resurrected body at the time of His coming. That's a phrase found in I Corinthians I5, in verse 51 or 52, where God declares, "We'll not all sleep, but we'll all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye."
And then He says when. That's the timing of the Rapture, you see: "at the sound of the last trumpet." And the last trumpet, the seventh trumpet, that's Judgment Day, according to Revelation 11. And here in II Thessalonians 2 He's saying, "Now concerning the coming of Our Lord [the day of the Lord], let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so called god or object of worship." That's Satan who takes over the rule of the church. He silences the Gospel. This is what is being spoken of here.
CALLER: I don't see how he can do that if we the saints are still here.
HC: Well, let me read Matthew 24:24. Matthew 24:24 says, "False prophets and false christs will arise with signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." Now who are the elect? The born again believers. We are the elect. Now where do we normally congregate, to worship God? In the church, where the true Gospel ought to be proclaimed.
But here it's talking about false prophets and false christs, leading astray, if possible, even the elect. That means that the church has been infiltrated, and has begun to be ruled over by those who come with another gospel, and who actually are not of Christ at all.
And they're coming with a gospel that looks so holy and so much like the true Gospel that if it were possible (and it's not possible, because no believer can be snared away from Christ), even the elect would be deceived. And they come with-signs and wonders. In other words, they come with a Gospel that features miracles and wonders, and it looks far more exciting then the true Gospel.
Now this is saying the same thing as II Thessalonians 2, where it talks about the man of sin taking his seat in the temple. The temple is the body of Christ. To take one's seat means to rule, or have authority. And Satan, through these false prophets and false christs, gains the rule over the church. He is able, as God brings judgment against the church because of its increasing rejection of the holiness of God, the Word of God, and so on, as is seen very greatly today, to rule. And the true Gospel, through this, will be silenced.
CALLER: In scripture, too, it teaches that they'll put up an image of the antichrist.
HC: Revelation 13 speaks about an image of the beast. And I really believe that is referring to the other gospels, any gospel that is not true, that is giving an object that the unsaved people, who think they are Christians but they are not, because you can't be an unsaved person and truly be a born again believer, obviously, something that they can worship. They will be convinced that this is it.
And remember in Revelation 13, where it talks about that image, it speaks again about signs, doing great signs.
CALLER: In a sense we could be into the tribulation now.
HC: We are entering into that period. I believe that we're getting . . . But the Gospel still is able to go throughout the world. It has not come to that point. But what we're beginning to see is that there has to be a transition time.
Now we look at the period when Judah was finally destroyed, in 587 BC. They were not instantly destroyed by Babylon. They had a marvelous King Josiah, who ruled from the period of about thirty-one years, from about 640 BC until 609 BC. And then, at the comparatively young age of thirty-nine, he was killed in a war, a very unnecessary war. And for the next twenty-three years Judah, or Israel, gradually decayed and disintegrated.
First they were in bondage to Egypt, and then they were in bondage in some degree to Babylon. And finally, in 587 BC, Babylon utterly destroyed Jerusalem. They destroyed the temple, they brought a great many of the Jews captive into Babylon. And that's the kind of period we're in. We're in a transition period, where the true Gospel is getting squeezed out more and more. Other gospels are gaining the ascendancy. Political ideologies that are anti-God are gaining the ascendancy.
CALLER: Why are the Jews getting Israel back, if these are supposed to be symbols of the church today?
HC: The question is raised about the nation of Israel. Well, you know, Jesus predicted this. Remember, He said in Matthew 24:32, "From the fig tree (and in the Bible I believe the fig tree is a figure of national Israel) learn its lesson. As soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that He is near, at the very gates."
Now look. It talks here about leaves. It doesn't talk about fruit, does it? "When you see the fig tree put forth its leaves, you know that summer is near," and therefore Christ is at the very gates.
Well now, when Jesus saw the fig tree in His day, and He put out His hand to find fruit, and there was no fruit, what did He do? He cursed it because there were only leaves. All right. Now what about the nation of Israel today? Is there fruit? No. As a nation they are as antagonistic toward Christ as Messiah as they ever have been. There is a remnant chosen by grace of Jews being saved, and this is thoroughly predicted in the Bible. But as a nation it is a nation amongst the nations, a viable, independent nation, but it's all leaves.
And so this is soundly predicted in the Bible as one of the signs of the end. And Jesus also had something to say about what was going to happen. Luke 21:20 says, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is come nigh." And Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, both the literal Jerusalem, over there alongside the shores of the Mediterranean Sea, and we too, the spiritual Jerusalem, are surrounded by armies that want to destroy us. And they will be destroyed, and so will the church be destroyed.
The believers will not all be killed, of course. There will be many, many, many believers who will patiently wait for the end.
Well, that gives you a few things to think about.
CALLER: It really does. I think it's very interesting. I wish there was some kind of literature out, a book or something, that people could get, to really research this.
HC: Let me encourage you to read the Bible. Now read Matthew 24 very very carefully. Don't read it once, but read it again and again and again and again. Matthew 24 is an excellent statement. And you don't have to read it symbolically or anything else. Read it as it is put here. And you'll see the timetable of the end.