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Transcript 528A — Malachi 4:1 and Everlasting Hell
HC: Good evening. Welcome to Open Forum.
CALLER: Mr. Camping, I'm very glad to hear your voice again. I'd like you to dwell upon Malachi 4:1 please.
HC: The question is raised concerning Malachi 4:1. Malachi is the last book of the Old Testament. And we read in Malachi 4:1: "For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble. And the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
Now you 're wondering what this refers to.
CALLER: Well, if there's anything else to understand other than the wording there, I'd like to know about it.
HC: I think the problem that is suggested here is, what does it mean that these who do wickedly shall be left with neither root nor branch? Now obviously this is talking about God's judgment on the wicked. "All that do wickedly shall be stubble. And the day that cometh shall burn them up." "The day that cometh" is Judgment Day. And it is at that time that God will cast the unsaved into the lake of fire, as we read in Revelation 20, which is a synonym for hell.
Now there are those who believe that when God says that He will cast them into the lake of fire, this will be annihilation. They will simply burn up and cease to exist. And they would use a verse like this to prove that particular idea, that they are left without root or branch.
The problem, however, is that when we look at all the language of the Bible that deals with hell, we find that God does not teach that there is annihilation. The Bible talks about eternal damnation. The Bible speaks of those who will be tormented forever. The Bible says there's a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the worm dieth not.
And so we have to read a verse like this in the light of these other passages, that there is no cessation of existence for those who are under the damnation of God? but that they are in eternal punishment of some kind. Now actually, man was created on this earth to live here and to have an eternal relationship with this earth. And of course in the time before the end of time there is also to be procreation. There is to be the bringing forth of progeny from the loins of mankind. But the idea is that he will be here eternally.
Now of course because of the sin of man he dies But those who have become saved still have an eternal relationship with this earth. We read in the Beatitudes, in Matthew 5, where Christ declared, "The meek shall inherit the earth." And of course this is the New Heaven and the New Earth. And so we who are born again believers do have a root. We do continue in a living relationship to this earth.
But for the unsaved, they are removed from this earth. They have no relationship forever with this earth. They cannot remain here because they are not a part of the Kingdom of God. They have to be removed to another place called hell, and there they suffer eternal banishment from God. They suffer eternal damnation. And in that sense they have neither root nor branch.
Now the word branch carries a double meaning. The word branch is a synonym for the Lord Jesus Christ. He in Isaiah 11 is spoken of as the branch of the root of Jesse. And the word root here incidentally also has a double meaning. The word root refers to the Lord Jesus Christ also. Remember in Isaiah 53 God declared that He would be as a root out of dry ground.
And so the ultimate spiritual meaning that's in view here is that they do not have the Lord Jesus Christ. They have neither root nor branch. They are outside of Christ eternally.
CALLER: That's right. When it comes to evil, everlasting is as long as it exists, in the hottest fire that can be made. That's how long everlasting is, as far as evil is concerned, the same as Sodom and Gomorrah was burned with everlasting fire. And it's in the bottom of the Dead Sea, so the scientists tell us, at the present time. It is ashes in the bottom of the sea.
HC: Ah! Now you've pointed out a very interesting phrase, that Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with everlasting fire. But you see, we only saw the down-payment, the first picture of that everlasting fire, when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire and brimstone back there 4000 years ago. But there is more to it than that, you see.
It's just like death. When man dies, when Adam died, when mankind dies because of their sins, that's not the whole picture. It isn't just physical death that's in view. There is also eternal death. There is the second death, which is the lake of fire. And so when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by literal fire and brimstone, that was only the down-payment. There's more to say, because those inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah (and you would not doubt this for a moment) were not annihilated. They perished physically. They lived not again in their present existence, but they will be resurrected on the last day, at Judgment Day. And they then will have to give an account of all of their sinful lives. And then they will come under the judgment of God, to answer for their sins.
That fire and brimstone that destroyed them was merely an indication of what was going to happen to them eternally. And it was a guarantee that this was going to happen to them eternally. But that in no way annihilated them. The city might have gone to the bottom of the Dead Sea, or been covered by the Dead Sea. But the inhabitants of the city, with whom God particularly was dealing, are the ones who must stand for judgment on the last day and receive the full brunt of the punishment of God.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was not the end of Sodom and Gomorrah. The fact that there was a literal city that once existed and now cannot be found does not mean that that the full payment has been made for their sins. A city consists of people, not of buildings. A city consists of people. And you'll remember when Abraham talked with God about Sodom and Gomorrah, he was saying, "If there are ten righteous in the city." These are the ones that God has in view when He talks about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Now the fact that they came under this awful punishment of fire and brimstone was the means by which God brought the first death upon them. But there is still the second death that has to be visited upon them in its full wrath of God. And that will occur when the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are resurrected on the last day. "The hour cometh when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come forth, some to the resurrection of eternal damnation." And Revelation 20 says that the sea gave up the dead in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead in them. And you can rest assured that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah will also be resurrected to stand for judgment. And then eternal damnation will be visited upon them.
That activity that happened 4000 years ago was simply the beginning of an eternal damnation. And when God uses that word everlasting, He is speaking about eternity. He is speaking about something that goes on forever.
CALLER: What you've just presented sounds reasonable. But it's just a matter of definition of the word everlasting.
HC: You see, when we talk about the damnation of God, we read, for example, in Revelation 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever," Now there's no way that we could understand it as anything but a continuous torment, when we read the language of everlasting damnation. On the one hand, in Matthew 25 God speaks about everlasting life. Well, everlasting life means it's life without end. It is life that goes on forever and ever, throughout eternity. And everlasting damnation then would be damnation that goes on forever and ever. That is the picture of the Bible.
And we read, for example, in Revelation 22, where it's talking about the New Heaven and the New Earth. And in that context it still has something to say about the unsaved. They're still in existence: "Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers," and so on and so on. They have not been annihilated.
This idea of annihilation is a very convenient idea, and certainly for those who are not really sure whether they're saved or not it's a very hopeful idea, because after all, then the worst that can happen to me if I happen not to be a born again believer is that I just cease to exist. Like an animal, I cease to exist. So I can bear that. After all, there's no pain, there's no penalty being paid if I simply cease to exist.
CALLER: If you die in a fire you live a good many minutes or hours.
HC: Well, my, you know, all kinds of Christians, where were born again believers, died in a fire. They were tied to a stake, and they died with the fire burning all around them. Now were they subjected to the same punishment that is spoken of when God speaks of eternal damnation? In other words, are you suggesting that these Christians who were burned at the stake actually suffered hell, and yet are born again believers? That wouldn't follow at all, would it?
CALLER: But they will be saved, because they're saved.
HC: Well, I know, but the fact is, if you're saying that the essence of hell is to die in a fire, then effectively you're saying that a Christian who is burned at the stake has suffered hell. And a Christian does not suffer hell. There's no way that a Christian suffers hell.
A Christian's sins have been covered. And so dying in a fire is not hell. That's an impossibility. That would make no sense at all. Hell is infinitely more terrible than dying in a fire, or to cease to exist. Hell is eternal damnation. It's awful. It's a terrible thing. That's why the Bible uses such ugly language in speaking about hell.
CALLER: The Bible made one mistake then when it said everlasting punishment instead of everlasting punishing. According to what we've just now discussed, it would be everlasting punishing. They would continue to be punished throughout the endless ages.
HC: I think that's just a matter of semantics. When a man has committed a crime and he is sent to prison for the rest of his natural life, which is really an analogous situation to what hell is, if a man has a life expectancy of, let's say, seventy years, and he has to spend most of those years until he dies in prison, that is punishment for the rest of his life. Now the life expectancy, or the existence expectancy of an unsaved person is forever. His existence is unending. And his punishment is for the rest of his life expectancy, or his existence. I don't use the word life because technically speaking we are not really alive in the full sense of the word unless we are in the Lord Jesus Christ, because we were created in the image of God. And so maybe we should use that word existence. His existence expectancy is forever. And the punishment for his sins is that he is to endure the wrath of God forever.
Now we see that. I think sending a man to jail for the rest of his natural life is directly analogous to God's statement of everlasting damnation.
But look. We've talked quite awhile together, and we should give someone else an opportunity. Thank you so much for calling. Good night.