Home Topics Index Download
Transcript 555A
Challenge to Mr.Camping's Teaching Style
HC: Good evening. Welcome to Open Forum.
CALLER: Hi. I wanted to ask you about your feelings about the Tribulation, and that we would be here and we would live through the Tribulation, and everything. And I was wondering if you were familiar with Renald Showers' feelings on that. He talks about how Christ's second coming is typified by a Jewish wedding ceremony. And I was wondering what your feelings are about this.
HC: I'm unfamiliar with that idea, and I'm unfamiliar with that book. So I'm not able to speak to that.
CALLER: Okay. Well, when the Jewish man wants to get married and he finds the girl that he is going to marry, he goes to the father, and they bargain for the daughter and he pays a price for her. And then the daughter and the groom drink a glass of wine together, and this kind of makes the marriage. They are really married then, but then he goes away for the year, and he prepares the house for his bride. And she doesn't know when he's coming, but it will be like in a year's time. And then when he does come, it's usually at night, and he brings his groomsmen. And they have lit torches, and they go down the street. And what happens is that the people in the procession come out and chant, "Behold, the bridegroom cometh." And so this goes on down the street, until the bride hears this. And then she knows that he is coming.
And then when he gets there, he waits for her to come out. And then she comes out of the house and she goes back with him to his home, where all the guests are, the home that he has prepared for them. And then they go into the bridal chamber, and they consummate the marriage. And then the groom tells the guests that the marriage is completed now. And then she stays in there for seven days, and then he brings her out on the seventh day, and he shows everybody who his bride is. And this is a typology of Christ's second coming. When the bridegroom comes to get his bride, he takes the bride back with him, and she's in there for seven days, in the bridal chamber. And it's just like Christ's second coming. When He does come He will take His bride up for the seven years. And then at the end, when He comes, He will reveal His bride to all of the people.
I know that you feel that we're going to be here, and I was wondering what are your thoughts on this?
HC: I would say, first of all, that that whole idea, while it's very romantic and it seems to fit a program that some people think the Bible teaches, it has no Biblical validation. There is no program like that outlined in the Bible. It is true that God uses the picture of the bridegroom coming in connection with the ten virgins in Matthew 25. But in that parable He doesn't mention the bride. He just mentions the ten virgins. And you can't go beyond that parable and include all these other elements that are not there.
That whole outline does not agree with the Bible. It just does not agree with the Bible.
CALLER: Well, this man has been through a lot of schooling and has studied his Bible pretty thoroughly, and his ideas are that the Bible has types and shadows, that the Old Testament is a type and a shadow of the Lord.
HC: Yes, but you see, when the Bible has types and shadows, we have to follow the Bible. Now if there were Jewish customs, let's say, that are not named in the Bible, we cannot look at those customs and say that those were types and shadows of something in the Bible. That is unwarranted. If we read the Bible and we find a type or a shadow, because it says that they had to sacrifice a lamb, or whatever it might have been – that they couldn't eat the unclean animals, or whatever the rule may have been – that is a Biblically warranted type or shadow.
But if we read the secular history and discover that there were certain customs that the Jewish people had, many people, for example, try to outline in great detail exactly the very steps that were in a typical Jewish feast. And they say all of this was a type or a shadow. Well, if it's not in the Bible, it's not a type or a shadow. It was just a custom that was developed. And you could romanticize this, and you can enlarge on this, and try to make it a type or a shadow. But you have no Biblical warrant for it. You have to stick with the Bible.
CALLER: What about Jacob and his bride? Not Rachel, but her sister . . .
HC: Leah.
CALLER: Yes, Leah. Now that was the same thing. He was in there for seven days.
HC: No, it doesn't say anywhere that he was with her for seven days.
CALLER: That they went into the bridal chamber?
HC: I don't think so. I think that they were married, and then in the morning he discovered that he had been deceived, that he had been married to Leah instead of Rachel. There's no suggestion there of seven days. I'm not aware of that in the Bible anywhere, where it talks about seven days.
CALLER: Okay. I'll have to look it up because I can't recall right offhand. But it seemed to me that that's what it had said. I'll look that one up and see what I can find. But I just can't help but feel that what Renald Showers said about it is right. He did put a pamphlet out on it, and it's just really interesting. I know a lot of people don't feel that we will be here during the Tribulation, and I just can't, you know, it's like the Jehovah's Witnesses. They come to your door, and they can use all kinds of scripture and say, "Well, this says this and this says that," yet that's their own feelings on it.
The one thing that bothers me, when you're telling people this, is that you say, "there's nowhere in the Bible." Now this really makes people feel like, "I'm all wrong and he's all right." I think if you said it at all, you should say, "Well, this is how I feel about it, and this is what I find in the Bible," because it seems like there's nowhere . . .
HC: You see, the problem is, I hear what you're saying, and I appreciate your comment very much. But the problem is this. If we're going to teach the Bible, and least this is my personal feeling about teaching the Bible, the first thing I have to do is to make sure that I've done my homework. And if I, for example, am going to talk about the Tribulation (or anything else), if I'm going to speak emphatically about it, I better sit down and spend the hours or the days or the months and really research the scriptures concerning it, everything I possibly can find that might be related to it. Otherwise I'd better not say, "Thus sayeth the Lord."
And so when I hear a person say something that is related to a subject that I've really worked on very very hard, and I'm acquainted with what the verses are in the Bible that relate to this, and they make a statement, and I know that is not in the Bible, that it just is not in the Bible, then I would be lying if I said, "Well, this is just my personal feeling," because it's not my personal feeling. I know what the Bible says about that particular question.
Now I'm not infallible, of course. Supposing I said, "Well, that is not in the Bible," and suppose that someone a week later or a month later came up with a verse and said, "Wait a minute. What about this verse?" Then I would be the first and the happiest person in the world to acknowledge that I was mistaken. There is a verse that I did overlook. And I have to change my attitude toward that particular question. And there have been times when I have done this.
But on a lot of these things, for example, you hear someone speaking on the return of Christ, and he talks about Russia, that it's going to overwhelm Israel. And I say, well, Russia is not in the Bible. It just is not in the Bible. Now the word Rosh is. It's found over 500 times in the Bible, the word Rosh. But it always is translated top or head or chief. And so when someone comes along with Ezekiel 38 or Ezekiel 39, where the word Rosh is found, and says this is Russia, then I say, wait a minute. If you're going to do that, then what about the other 500 places where the word Rosh is found? How about putting Russia over there, too? That's not exegeting the Bible when you find a word that is similar to something you want to teach, and now you simply say that in this case it means something that I think it ought to say. That's not dealing fairly with the Word of God.
CALLER: There's a lot of people, a lot of scholars, who, you said one night that you had no schooling. And you don't have to have schooling. I don't think you do, either. But somebody I was speaking to the other night said that there was a person who flatly came out and said one night, "Well, Mr. Camping is wrong." He's studied Greek, and he knows what's he's talking about. Now I'm not saying you don't, but he's trained. He knows. If you can get right down to the Greek, you've gotten down to the brass tacks.
HC: Now let me say this. First of all, we are impressed by scholarship. This is the way we are schooled in our land. Someone who has a doctor's degree and someone who has a lot of other degrees, we are impressed by this. And if he is a theological professor, so much the better. We are deeply impressed by this.
However, the bare fact is this, that a great amount of scholarship today in church circles (and in the secular world it's totally true) is by people reading other people's books. And these books are read, and they're digested, and then they're passed on, and the professor passes it on to the students, the student goes into his pastorate and eventually he becomes a professor, and then it's passed on this way. And I don't put down this kind of knowledge, or this kind of scholarship. That's fine. That's wonderful that they have all of this scholarship. But the wonderful thing is that God has given us His Word. God has given us the Bible. And He's given us eyes to read, and He's given us minds to think. And if we're a child of God, then also the Holy Spirit will illuminate our minds, if we will do our homework. There's no shortcut.
And so we can start reading the Bible, and reading and reading and reading, and reading, and comparing scripture with scripture. Now it is true that if you are a Greek scholar, there may be that occasionally a word or a verse will be a little bit more meaningful because you know the original Greek. But wonderfully, our translations are accurate enough so that in 95 or 98% of all doctrine, or even 99% of all doctrine, you're going to find that your doctrines are going to be thoroughly trustworthy just from the English Bible. Once in awhile it is true that a Greek word might change your mind.
Now for example, I was doing a study on I Corinthians 9 in Family Bible Study. I came to the last verse, where Paul says, "I buffet my body lest after saving others I become a castaway." Now just using the English Bible I had always concluded that this simply meant that he was very careful that he did not trip himself up, fall into some sin that would make him lose his right to be an apostle if he fell into the sin of adultery, or whatever. Many ministers have done this.
But in making a very careful study for Family Bible Study, I looked at that word in the Concordance to see how the Greek was used throughout the Bible, and I became convinced that that word had to be understood like becoming someone who was rejected or someone who was a reprobate, that this is the way it ordinarily is used in the Bible, and that verse has to be understood with that in view.
And so in that case the Greek word did make a difference. But wonderfully, in 98% of all cases in the Bible, the English Bible is adequate. But the problem is that people don't spend enough time in the Bible. Like the book that you started out with, now that may be very interesting, talking about Jewish customs, and so on, and how that parallels certain things in the Bible. But that isn't the Bible.
CALLER: No, but you've written books, too. Let's face it. I don't know if you've, had any Greek or anything, have you?
HC: Well, only as I've worked in the scriptures. In other words, I use an Interlinear Greek/English translation, I use the Concordance and look up how God uses words, Greek words. I'm not a Greek scholar by any means. But I don't think you have to be a Greek scholar in order to get most of what you need in the Bible. The biggest problem is spending enough time with what we have.
CALLER: I'm sure that this man has. I'm sure he spends a lot of his time. In fact, that's how he makes his living.
HC: I may be wrong in places, certainly I may be. But let's take a question like the Tribulation. Now you don't have to be a Greek scholar at all, not at all, to find the Biblical truth concerning the Tribulation and the timing of the Rapture. The Bible has just oodles of things to say about it, very plain things to say about it. All you have to do is take time enough to read the Bible and to put all these things out, and put aside all the speculations that are written about in books. That's the hardest pill to swallow.
CALLER: Then you'll tell people to write in for your pamphlets, telling your view. This is the thing.
HC: You see, the reason I do this is this. You've heard me say many times, "Don't trust me. Trust the Bible. Read the Bible." Now when I write a pamphlet, I do it for two reasons. I do it first of all because questions are raised on a doctrine, and I could spend a half hour answering that question. The next week the same question or a similar question is asked, and I could spend a half hour answering again. By simply saying, "Look. Here are two or three of the proof texts of the Bible, but if you're interested in this, write in, and I've prepared a little pamphlet on this so that you can study at your leisure," they can examine it with a view toward checking it out. Read the verses, check them out. Don't trust me. Trust the Bible.
And it's only a help. I'm not particularly anxious about books, and all of this. I wish people would read the Bible. But I do try, when I do write a pamphlet, to just stick with the Bible. What does the Bible say? Now others try to do this, too. And I wish that whatever people read, they would check out. I've read many books in which a certain idea is developed, and they'll offer a verse, and then they'll, well, let me just think of one as an illustration. In Romans 11:25, I'll read a book that is exegeting that verse. And in that verse God declares that a hardness will remain upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, and "thus all Israel will be saved."
Well now, I've read these books and they'll say, "You see? Israel is in unbelief right now, but when the end of the Gentile period has come, then all Israel will be saved." And then they go on to develop this, that then all Israel will be saved. Well, they very neatly slip in this word then, which is not in the verse. That verse is not teaching then at all, it's thus or in this fashion all Israel will be saved. Well, you can read that book and never catch that. And that's why I ask people to read the Bible. Keep sticking with the Bible. Make sure you're reading the Bible very carefully.
CALLER: Okay. Just one other thing. You say that there's nowhere in the Bible that says that we won't be here during the Tribulation, but why are there other people like pastors and trained people who disagree? Now if there is nowhere in the Bible that says we will be gone, why are there so many people that teach this?
HC: Well, that's an interesting question, and I've puzzled over that also. How can a doctrine which is so clearly explicated in the Bible as the fact that the Rapture is the last day, the end of time, and there are so many, many proof texts of this, so very clearly put in there, how is it possible that such a large body of Christians, believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, theologians and preachers, and so on, hold to the idea that the church will be caught up ahead of this? That's a mystery to me.
There is of course a very practical reason for it. One of the reasons is that one of the Bibles that have been pushed in the last generation or so is a Bible that has footnotes, and it is a Bible that was highly recommended by certain of the theological schools. And in the footnotes of this Bible the idea was fostered that the church would be raptured ahead of the Tribulation. Now the unfortunate thing is that those who use this Bible and this particular Bible is one that has as its text the King James Version, and it's a perfectly sound Bible. But the footnotes explain the text. And of course the footnotes are just the idea of a person. They may be true, or they may not be true. But many preachers and many theological professors insist that this is the Bible to buy, this is the one to buy, if you buy a Bible.
All right. Now what happens is that someone reads that Bible, and they come to a difficult passage, and so their eye goes down to the bottom of the page to read the footnote. And the footnote seems to make sense, it's written well and it seems to explain the verse. So now they think they understand this verse, and they go on in their reading.
Well then, a month later, if someone asks them, or six months later, a question about this matter, they say, "Well, I know I read it in the Bible. I know I read it in the Bible." Well, they did. They read it on the page of that Bible, but they didn't read it in the text. But their minds no longer can remember where they read it. They're just convinced they read it in the Bible. And I think in a very mechanical or practical way that has occasioned a tremendous amount of ideas that were not Biblical, but people are convinced that they did read it in the Bible.
Now the other thing is again a very mundane, practical kind of a thing. Where do seminary professors come from? Well, they started out as a student in a seminary. And when they went to seminary, they got their teaching from seminary professors, and they kept all those notes - their systematic theology, and so on. And then they went into a pastorate probably for a while, and they didn't really do any serious study because they were busy with the problems of the pastorate, and administration, and preaching two sermons every Sunday, and so on, and eventually they began to be a seminary professor. Well, again, they've learned through seminary and through their pastorate what they have learned, and now this is what they teach. So whatever they have learned they continue to hand down. And very few people are doing any new serious research of the scriptures, really starting from the beginning again, let's examine the scriptures and see where are.
Now unfortunately, and of course this is the path of least resistance. All their fellow pastors believe this, they have many learned people in their denomination that believe this, and it's accepted. And so this is the way then that they preach.
Now I personally, while I have been in a denomination all my life, don't trust anything of anybody. I want to read it in the Bible. Even if I hear someone whom I highly regard as a teacher, and there are those whom I highly regard as teachers, if they tell me something that is a new idea to me, I don't trust that idea. I wait until I can be alone and make an independent search of the scriptures, to make sure that what I've been told is accurate, because I want to see it for myself in the Bible. And this is the kind of thing I'm trying to get our listeners to do. Sometimes the only way they'll do it is when they become angry with me. They don't like what I say. And then in their desperation, in their anger, they say, "Well, I'll go to the Bible and prove he's wrong anyway." And that delights me no end, because at least they're in the Bible.
Now you'll notice that when you hear the Open Forum program, I never never recommend a book. I never recommend John Calvin or Martin Luther or Harry Ironside or "so and so said this" or "so and so said that," because the only thing I recommend is the Bible. Now I have exactly the same Bible that anyone else has. It's a King James Bible. And so I'm reading exactly the same Bible that anyone else reads. And so this is our authority. This is what we have to work with.
CALLER: There's so many people divided. The only thing I can say is, we'll find out when it happens.
HC: Well no, we don't have to wait until it happens. We can read the Bible. This is what we have to do. We have to read the Bible. Involuntarily the typical Christian, when a question arises, let's say, concerning the coming of Christ, will go to a Christian bookstore to buy a book on the return of Christ. They want to find out what this man said, or that man said, or some other man. And I say why don't you read the Bible? Let the Bible tell you. Read it very carefully.
And when your pastor preaches a sermon on any question, whether it's on the doctrines of grace or on the return of Christ, don't be afraid to ask questions. "What about this verse or that verse?" And I think every pastor ought to be quizzed by the congregation, if they have been reading and they wonder about this or that, because this keeps the pastor on his toes, makes sure he's facing all of the scriptures. And it also is an encouragement to the church members to get deeper into the Word of God.
CALLER: You know, the people that do write books, good sound Christians that have written books, most always put their references in. They'll never say, "Well, I believe this, and I'm going to put in my own ideas," and not back it up with scripture. A lot of times they do. They have equally as much scripture to prove a point.
HC: Now let me speak to that just a moment. You say, "equally as much scripture." I don't know if you've ever read some of these books and really looked at the scriptures offered, and just really examined them. For example, I know of a very large book on the return of Christ. It's a classic on the return of Christ. And nowhere in it is there any reference made to Romans 4, which has everything to do with Israel, and so on. How can that be? But look, we've run out of time. I'm sorry. But I would encourage you to just read the Bible.