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Transcript 593A
Coping with Conflicting Interpretations
HC: Good evening. Welcome to Open Forum.
CALLER: Hello, Mr. Camping. I have a question that I wonder if you could comment on, please. It's kind of a predicament, actually. I sincerely wish to get into the Bible and understand the scripture both for my own use and also to witness to others. So I began reading on my own, and I didn't understand everything I read. And others advised me to look into other sources, like commentaries, to explain different passages. And I also began reading literature by people who say they are Bible experts. I mean they read it and studied it, and so forth. And I can't help but keep running into people who have conflicting interpretations on the same passages. And often they even use the same passages to espouse entirely different positions. And I really am getting to a point where I don't know how to proceed. I listen to you quite often, but how can I be sure that what you are saying, and your knowledge, is accurate, as opposed to what somebody else tells me that is quite different? I would like some guidance from you on how to proceed.
HC: I think that's a very good, practical question. We listen to various teachers and pastors, and so on, and we wonder, who is right? One thing that I want to say about what I teach is, don't trust me. Under no circumstance trust me. You are to trust the Bible. Now any teacher who is worth his salt, who is really trying to bring the Word of' God, will try to back up what he is teaching with scripture. And he will try to do his homework in the scripture and show where he derives his teachings or his doctrines.
Now what you want to do is check out those verses, and see if they really say what the teacher claims that they say. And read those verses very, very carefully. Now a lot of times you'll read a commentary, and the writer will go along and be developing a particular interpretation, and then he will offer some proof texts. He won't quote them in what he is writing, but he will simply mention that you should look at those proof texts. Now it's very important that you look up those proof texts that he is offering, because a lot of times, and I want to say this very kindly, a lot of times we get the impression that a writer knows a lot about the Bible and is very very faithful to the Word of God because he is offering a lot of scriptural references. He'll make a point, and then he'll say, "Even as we read in Jeremiah 6:19 and Deuteronomy 28:13," and maybe he'll give a series of four or five verses. And then he'll go on to the next point. And if we're unwary, we think, "My, he has a lot of scripture to underscore what he is teaching. He must be right."
But what you have to do is take time to check out those verses. Look up those verses that he has offered as proof texts, and see if they really speak to the question. Now you might find one of two things. You might find that indeed they do speak to the question. And reading them very carefully, you will find that they indeed do reinforce the argument he is offering. And then you begin to have confidence in that particular doctrine he is offering. But, on the other hand, you may read those verses, and you'll say, "Now why did he offer this as a proof text? I don't see any relationship to the point he is making." And then you look up the next one, and you'll hardly see any relationship. And then you realize, "Now just a minute. Just because you listed a lot of scriptures here, that doesn't mean you've developed your point."
And this is very necessary to do. In other words, just because a teacher comes claiming to have truth, and comes claiming to be able to say, "Thus saith the Lord," don't trust him. Check him out. Check me out when I offer scriptures. Read those verses.
Now a second thing that you have to do is to really read those verses carefully. Now a classic case of this is Romans 11:25 & 26. And I think these two verses are as good an example as anything I can find in the Bible. Now these two verses are used as one of the most dominant proofs of the fact that God still has a program for national Israel, that God intends to save national Israel, and God has a great and glorious future for them. These two verses, Romans 11:25 & 26, are the foundational verses that are used very very frequently by those that hold to that kind of a doctrine.
And yet, if you read them very carefully, very carefully, word by word, and see exactly what they say, you find that they actually are saying exactly the opposite. They are not saying that Israel has a glorious future as a nation, but that they will continue in their blindness, except for a remnant chosen by grace, and this blindness will continue right up until the end of time, that is, until the last Gentile has been saved. And it is in this fashion that all Israel will be saved. Now that is precisely the only thing those verses can be teaching. And yet all kinds of theologians . . . and I don't understand why they do this, I think it's just carelessness. I don't think it's done with malice aforethought. I don't think that it's done because they're trying to corrupt the scriptures. I think it's just carelessness. Someone they trust has used these two verses as a proof text for that particular doctrine, and then they have bought that without really checking it carefully. So they in turn use it as a proof text. But when you read these verses carefully, they say exactly the opposite of what they are claimed to be teaching.
And all I can say is that whoever is teaching, whether it's me or anybody else, check out the verses. Read them very carefully, and see if that is what they are saying.
CALLER: So what you're saying then is that it's okay to listen to experts that seem like they're talking from opposite sides of the fence, and then make the final judgment yourself, leaving it up to individual interpretation?
HC: Ultimately you're not leaving it up to individual interpretation. You're leaving it up to Bible interpretation, because if you listen to so called experts, those who claim to be teachers, those who claim to have a knowledge of the question, you will find that some of them are more faithful to the Bible than others. Some are simply espousing a view without really checking it out in the Bible very carefully. And you will discover this when you look up the proof texts they offer. And then you will know that they're not on very solid ground. Their interpretation is probably not very Biblical.
On the other hand, someone else might offer verses, and you check them out and find that indeed they are teaching what he is saying. And then you will begin to sense that at least on that doctrine he is more true to the Bible, and his interpretation is more Biblical than the other. And this is the way you'll learn from scripture.
CALLER: That's true. If you look up something that is obviously off the wall and has nothing to do with it, that would be an obvious error. But say, for example, there is a group that if you lead the literature on what they espouse, they are firm one-hundred percent Bible believers, even to the point where if they start hearing something that doesn't sound scriptural, they back away from it and they always go back to the Bible. One of their beliefs is that they don't believe that Jesus was God. And they specifically put in their literature that a lot of people quote specific passages to prove that Jesus was God. And they say, "Okay, let's look at these." They put it down. One, for example, is "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God," and so on. And then later on it says, "And the Word became flesh," and it was Jesus. Well, they go back to the Greek and they say if you look at the Greek for word, it's logos and it doesn't mean a person. It means an idea. And they say that this idea was with God for all eternity. And this was the plan. And when Jesus was incarnated on earth, it was the first time He ever was incarnated, and He didn't exist all this time.
So in this particular case, for example, they actually spell it out, saying, "Here is the scripture passage."
HC: All right. Now let's take that as an example. That's a good example. You read that, and it sounds plausible. Remember, those who are writing, from whatever point of view, believe in what they are writing and they are convinced that what they are writing is true.
Now first of all, when they say that the word logos is an idea, you have to check the rest of the Bible and see if that is really so. See how the word logos is used. And you'll find that the word logos is not just an idea. It is the Word. It is a word. And a word, while it may express an idea, a word has substance. The Bible is the Word of God, but it has substance. It is the revelation of the will of God. And so right away you begin to sense, "Well, these people are begging the question. In their desire to prove their point, they are pushing on the use of that word far beyond where it ought to be."
Secondly, look at opposing viewpoints, where people say, "But wait a minute. Christ is God." And check their arguments, as they point to such passages as Hebrews 1, where the Bible declares, "Of the Son He said, Thy throne, oh God, is forever and ever." Or where His stepfather Joseph was told by the angel, "His name is Emmanuel, which means God With Us." Or as you look into the nature of salvation, that it is God Himself who has to pay for our sins. Otherwise we couldn't have a sin-bearer. And begin to view it from the vantage point of everything else the Bible has to say.
Now you will find, when you read their pamphlet, now I haven't read it, but based upon the kind of doctrine they're offering, they will attack a few verses from the Bible that they feel they can refute in some way. You will find that their argumentation is weak. But they will not be ready to face everything the Bible has to offer. Nor will they get into the question, "Then how can we have a Savior if Jesus Christ is not God?" If Jesus Christ is not God, if He was simply a god, a superman, if you will, then we have no way for having remission of our sins, because who is there to become the sin-bearer of all who have ever placed their trust in Christ? If Christ is not God, then we have no Savior, we have no salvation. I feel terribly sorry for those people who believe that Christ is not God, because they are denying the fact that there is a Savior. They have no Savior for their sins.
Now it takes time. This takes a lot of homework. It takes research. One of the best books that you can buy is a concordance, a Young's Concordance. And a Christian who is serious about wanting to know more truth from the Bible ought to buy a Young's Concordance, and get his feet wet making word studies, because then you have all the verses of the Bible at your fingertips that might relate to a particular word or a particular subject.
CALLER: I believe it's true that the Bible is the Word of God and we should be able to take everything from it. It doesn't seem like it would be such a difficult task to extract this necessary information that's such a requirement to salvation.
HC: Now that's a good observation. Why does it have to be such a difficult task? Why can't it be a lot easier? Well, the reason is that God wrote the Bible so it would be a difficult task. We read in Mark 4:11, "Unto you is given to know the mystery of the Kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables that seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand, lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them." In other words, God wrote the Bible in such a way that truth would be hard to find. Unless you come to the Bible with a child-like trust in it that it is the Word of God and with a view to being obedient to it, you're going to end up finding all kinds of contradictions and false doctrines in the Bible.
And that's exactly what a lot of people end up finding. But if we search the scriptures, and patiently compare spiritual things with spiritual things, which is what the Bible commands us to do, and we want to be obedient to what we find there and are ready to throw out any doctrines or practices that prove to be contrary to the Bible, we will discover that the Holy Spirit will lead us into truth. And yet, again, we have to do it very patiently. It will take time.
I get on the air, and a lot of people will ask me a question about some verse in the Bible, and I will give a very quick answer, as if any dumbbell ought to know that . . . that's not a very nice word, I admit . . . but like anyone ought to know that, regardless of what their background is. But the fact is, I may have struggled with that verse for years. I may have wondered, "What can God really mean by that verse?" And finally the truth begins to dawn. And I know that I'm on truth because when I find what I believe to be truth I will find that it also is in entire agreement with all kinds of other statements that veer upon it and impinge upon it.
But to arrive at that point took a lot of work, a lot of prayer, "Oh, Lord, where is wisdom?" And that's of course why we have teachers, those who can share what they discover. And then those who listen can check them out, "Yes, that does agree with the scriptures," or "No, on that one you just don't agree with scripture. What about these verses over here that seem to be altogether contrary to what you are saying?" And then you don't have to accept that particular doctrine from that teacher.
CALLER: I see. Now you've often said that ignorance is no excuse for not knowing the Word. So if I look into the Bible and I start believing in one particular interpretation on one point, and it turns out to be wrong, it doesn't seem to me that I would be held accountable for telling other people, for passing on this wrong idea or believing this wrong idea myself.
HC: The question is, what about the matter of accountability, if I don't have a complete knowledge of the scriptures as I'm trying to share the scriptures with others?
First of all, we must not be afraid of sin if we are a child of God. We know that our sins have been covered, and we know that we never measure up. On this side of the grave we never measure up to the perfection of God's holiness. And so we don't really have to be afraid of sin. We know that if we do sin, God has covered that sin.
But because we are a child of God, we don't want to live in sin. We love God, and sin is reprehensible to us. But yet we know that we see in a glass darkly, and sometimes we have a practice or hold a doctrine that is contrary to the Word of God. Now that's sinful. The idea of ignorance does not excuse us of that sin. If I am driving down the highway, as even our present philosophy of jurisprudence teaches, and I didn't see the sign that said "School - Drive Slowly," or "Drive 15 MPH" because there's a school, and I'm going merrily along at 35 MPH, and then a policeman apprehends me, "Sir, you were going 35 MPH in a 15 MPH Zone," and I say, "But sir, I didn't see the sign, I was ignorant of that altogether," yet I'm still going to get a ticket and I'm going to have to pay the fine. And that is correct. I have been guilty, even though I was unaware at the moment that I was guilty.
Now the same is true if I hold a doctrine that is contrary to the Word of God and I teach it to others. That is sin in my life. And the Bible warns, "Let not many of you be teachers," because teachers will be judged more severely and we want to be sure that we're not blind leaders of the blind. And therefore, before we would dare say, "Thus saith the Lord," and begin to teach, we want to really know what the Bible is saying. Many many times I will say, when someone asks me, "What does this verse mean?" . . . "I'm sorry, I'd rather not try to answer that because I haven't really studied that verse, and I don't want to speculate at this point." I just don't want to offer something when I haven't done my homework.
Or again, I may be teaching a verse and I realize that I'm not certain of what it teaches, and so I'll say, "I'm not really certain of what this verse teaches. It could be this, or it could be that. At least this may get your thinking started, and go on with that." But on the other hand, if I read a verse and I have studied it, and I've found other scriptures to really support it, and I find that my solution to that verse agrees with everything I know about the plan of salvation as I've studied the Bible concerning this, then I will unhesitantly say "Thus saith the Lord. This I believe is what this verse is teaching," And I will do it without any embarrassment or without any reservations, because I believe that we can't equivocate if we know where truth is.
But let's make sure, first of all, that we know where truth is. And then let's come through with it very clearly. Now again, it's imperative that we be ready, if we're going to lay our teaching on the line and say, "Thus saith the Lord . . ." to be ready to defend that position from scripture. If someone would call and say, "Sir, you've been teaching this," or "You've been teaching that, and frankly, I don't know where you get that," I better be ready to say, "I taught that verse this way because the Bible says "so and so" here, and the Bible says "so and so" there. And as I compared that verse with these other scriptures, and as I compared it with the whole nature of what the salvation program is, I saw that this was in all likelihood what God had in view, at least as one meaning of that verse."
CALLER: I see. Well, thank you very much for being available to answer these questions, Mr. Camping.