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Transcript 675A — Understanding the True Gospel
HC: Good evening. Welcome to Open Forum.
CALLER: Mr. Camping, I was wondering if I could clarify a few things with you. I'm trying to understand your message of salvation. As I understand it, we must know and understand the true Gospel, and we must constantly be on guard against false gospels. And we must be very careful of people who may be giving us false gospels, although they themselves fully believe in what they're saying, and may apparently be able to back it up with Bible Scriptures. Is this basically correct?
HC: Yes, I would say that is basically correct. Every false gospel (and we call it a gospel only because they still talk about the Lord Jesus and the shed blood, and so on) has an authority that is wider or narrower than the Bible alone and in its entirety. And yet those who follow it are convinced they are following truth, and their doctrines have some Biblical validity. That is, they find verses that will support whatever doctrines they are teaching. Now of course they're looking at those verses from the vantage point of their larger authority, so that they interpret the verses very frequently differently than if they were following the true Gospel. But nevertheless they are convinced that they can back up at least some of what they're preaching from the scriptures.
CALLER: How then is a simple person such as myself supposed to know and recognize the true Gospel, without apparently extensive background and training, which apparently you had?
HC: There are two things that I might say. First of all, the Bible says Jesus' sheep did not hear them. And the context is where Jesus is saying, "All that have come before Me are thieves and robbers." And God identifies thieves and robbers in the Bible as a term that relates to those who are followers of other gospels than the true Gospel, and yet they claim that they are saved.
What I'm trying to say is that the Bible teaches that ultimately it is God who guides us into truth and keeps us from being snared into a false gospel, if indeed we are to be saved, if we are indeed one of God's elect. That is a commitment that God makes. But at the same time, God does warn, "Beware of false prophets." And God tells us to test the spirits, and so on. And wonderfully, there is a very simple test. It's so simple, and yet so few theologians have ever expressed it. And that simple test is that any religion or any gospel is determined by the authority under which it operates. As I've said so frequently, if you are a Muslim how do you know how you are to live, or what you are to believe as a Muslim? Well, you go to the writings of Mohammed. He is the authority, and these writings are looked upon as divine.
And so if you're a true believer, what is your authority? The authority is the Bible, alone and in its entirety. We're not to add to the words of this book, nor take away from the words of this book. Therefore, if someone talks about the Bible, and really believes the Bible is the authority, and yet he also believes there is another source of divine truth, then by definition he has a wider authority than the Bible alone and in its entirety. And therefore they have a different gospel than that which would be determined or structured by the authority of the Bible alone and in its entirety.
CALLER: What I'm concerned about myself is that I understand several messages that I've heard you give, signs or miracles or visions or speaking in tongues, or any of the number of manifestations of the Holy Spirit, are now pure signs of the reverse. These things don't happen any longer, in other words. And now if you receive signs, or if you see a miracle, it is definitely from someone who is representing a false gospel.
HC: All I can do is tell you what the Bible teaches. As the Bible talks about the character of the church at the end of time, where I believe we are, we find that in every case (there are no exceptions to this) where it talks about signs and wonders in the church it always relates to Satanic activity. And that's a very ominous fact.
Now the interesting thing is that those churches that are interested in signs and wonders (and they're legion today, they're growing and proliferating all over the world) invariably those churches are also interested in visions and voices and tongues, and so on. But visions and voices and tongues are an admission that God is still speaking today, that God is still bringing divine revelation. Therefore the Bible is not alone the Word of God. They are saying there is more to the Word of God than the Bible. And so by definition their authority is a different authority than the Bible alone. And so it's no wonder therefore that they're also interested in signs and wonders. Any gospel that is not the true Gospel is not of God, and if it's not of God it's of Satan. There is only one true Gospel that is of God, and that is the Gospel that is structured by the Bible.
CALLER: What about the case of signs and miracles that are pertinent only to today, but still fit the scriptures? Doesn't that relate to the place where Christ said, "By their fruit ye shall know them," that a good tree cannot bear evil fruit and an evil tree cannot bear good fruit? That's the only real test that I've ever found - that Christ said to test the prophets on that basis, by whether their fruit was good or evil.
HC: But what is the fruit? You see, if the Bible says we're not to add to the words of this book, and now someone says, "That's fine, but I believe that God is still speaking today, that He still comes with visions, and so on," then he is rebelling against God. He is rebelling against the authority of the Word of God. And so regardless of how moral he may appear or how often he talks about the Lord Jesus or the blood of Christ or the church or the resurrection, or whatever it may be, the fact is they are designing a gospel that they want rather than a gospel that is structured by the Bible. This is where the whole thing begins and ends, and that is with the authority. The Bible is the authority. It is the only authority. The entire Bible is the authority. And the moment we depart from that, then we are starting to go down a path that is designed from our own minds, if we're hallucinating or dreaming, or whatever; or it even could be of Satan, if the vision did come from him.
That's the problem that we're facing today. Are we willing to surrender our will to the authority of the Bible alone and in its entirety? That is where the true Gospel is. And we aren't willing to do that if start looking for divine truth in a vision or a voice or something else.
CALLER: Then you're saying that God no longer speaks to people.
HC: I'm very certain He does not, in any kind of a verbalized or articulated way. God indicates that we're not to add to the words of this book I'm very positive about that.
But I also know that in the secular world, for example, mediums and so on are convinced that they are receiving messages from God, and I know that Satan does speak through ouija boards and tarot cards, and so on. And so God certainly allows Satan to break the silence between the supernatural and the natural. Now the Bible warns in Second Corinthians 11 that Satan comes as an angel of light, or as a messenger of light. In other words, he comes looking exactly like the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Bible speaks of Satan's ministers as being ministers of righteousness. So deceitful is Satan that these ministers are convinced that they are serving Christ, absolutely convinced. But God calls them emissaries of Satan, or false prophets.
If Satan is allowed to break the silence between the supernatural and the natural in the secular world, then certainly he'll do it in the church. But he's going to do it in the most holy surroundings. And so we're living in a very dangerous era, a very dangerous time. And the only security we have is that we listen only to the Bible as the Word of God.
CALLER: You just made a remark that I'll have to question you about. You say that if Satan was going to speak out like that, it would only be in the most holy places. Shall we say from Bethlehem, in a manger? Shall we say from a simple man walking around in the most rural country area?
HC: No. The most holy place insofar as the Bible is concerned is the church Bethlehem is not a holy place. Bethlehem is the place where Jesus was born, but that doesn't make it a holy place.
CALLER: I would say the manger was.
HC: No, it's not a holy place. Jesus was born there, but that which is holy is that which has been set apart for the service of God. And the temple that God speaks about is the body of believers. And that's exactly where God warns that Satan will operate. In Matthew 24:24 God says, "False prophets and false christs will arise with signs and wonders, so lead astray if possible even the elect." Now the elect are the true believers. They are the ones who have been chosen by God from the foundations of the world. And they are found in the churches and congregations that hold the true Gospel. These churches are going to be harassed by false prophets, who come in the name of Christ, with a gospel that looks so close to the true Gospel that even the elect would be deceived, if that were possible. It's not possible. God gives us that assurance in other passages. But it will be so close to the true Gospel, because Satan comes as an angel of light.
But one of the factors that we can recognize immediately, as stated in Matthew 24:24, is that they will come with signs and wonders. And so any time someone is featuring signs and wonders it's really a red flag: Watch out! Watch out! That can't be of God, because the true Gospel is not interested in signs and wonders. It's interested in walking by faith. And it's an evil and an adulterous generation that seeketh for a sign.
CALLER: Then how would a person know if he was one of the elect?
HC: We know we're one of God's elect if we have become a true believer, if we know that our sins have been paid for and that Christ is our Savior and Lord, and we're convinced that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the divine Word. It is the Word of God. But if we say we're saved, if we say our sins have been paid for, and yet we have become convinced that there is more to divine truth than the Bible, then we don't know what salvation is. The Bible says that if anyone adds to the words of this book, God will add to him the plagues written therein, which is another way of saying that he is still subject to damnation, which brings us to the conclusion therefore that he is still unsaved.
CALLER: The thing is, though, if I believe all the things that you say, then how can I be sure that what I read in the Bible is really the true Gospel, and that I'm not deceiving myself.
HC: You see, we have to start with faith. By faith we have to believe that the Bible is the Word of God. Now the Bible is not something that has just been written in the last 100 years, and it's a popular best-seller because it's caught man's fancy. The Bible is a book that has stood the test of 2,000 years in time, and millions of people have hung their lives on it. And when we study the Bible very very carefully, we find that the internal evidence of the Bible clearly demonstrates that it is a supernatural book. There are just far too many truths hidden within it and pouring out of it to ever allow it to be anything but a book that is God breathed. In fact, the Bible says of itself that holy men of old spoke as the Holy Spirit moved them
We start therefore with the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God. It's not some publisher's book, it's not some church's book. It is the Word of God itself. And the Bible says of itself that we're not to add to it. And those who have hung their lives on the Bible and have trusted everything that the Bible offers have come to salvation, and they know that they're saved because the Bible is the living Word of God. As they read the Bible, the Holy Spirit witnesses with their spirit that they are a child of God. And this is not in any articulated or verbalized fashion. It is simply that they sense in their hearts that yes, this is truth, I believe this. And God's wish becomes their command.
CALLER: The verse that you keep quoting from, about he who adds to or takes away from this book, is right at the end of Revelation. And when I read it, I can see no reference to the rest of the Bible, only to the prophecies of the book of Revelation. That's where you and I would disagree. How do we know that you're right and I'm wrong, or I'm right and you're wrong?
HC: The Bible is one cohesive whole. The Bible is not a series of sicty-six books, each standing on its own merits, so that you can do with any one of those books as you wish. The Bible is one Word, it is the Word of God. And if you add something to the book of Revelation you have added it to the Bible. And if you take something away from the book of Revelation you have taken it away from the Bible.
CALLER: The point is this. I would agree that you could not add to or take away from any of the books of the Bible. But when I read Revelation, I only read that that is a curse, or a wrath of God, particularly pertaining to that book, because if anyone disturbs one word of that prophecy he throws the whole prophecy off, thereby blinding anyone who would understand it.
HC: Supposing that someone added a verse to the book of Revelation and it was a verse from another part of the Bible. There's a lot of redundancy in the Bible, where God uses the same verse even in the same chapter, over and over. If someone added a verse to Revelation that was found elsewhere in the Bible, they have now thrown Revelation out of balance. But the fact is, they have added something to the Word of God. They have put something there that God has not said, that God has not decreed at that particular point.
The Bible is the Word of God. This is the big point. And we either believe this or we don't believe it. And if we don't believe it, then we can make our additions to the book of Revelation, and once we do that when we read Revelation 22:18 we're going to interpret it in the light of our wider revelation. And we've already accepted the principle that God is still speaking today. And so then we're going to read Revelation 22:18, and we're going to say, "Well, whatever it means, I know it doesn't mean that God is not speaking today, because my later authority indicates that that conclusion is impossible." That's exactly the trap that you get into.
But if we just let the Bible speak to us, then we know that we stop with the book of Revelation. That is the end of revelation. The curious thing is that so frequently those who are interested in signs and wonders are also interested in adding to the Bible, adding further visions, and so on. And yet the Bible is very clear that signs and wonders near the end of time are related to Satanic activity. And yet they don't seem to fear that they may have fallen prey to this.
Secondly, if I would receive a vision, a glorious vision, some holy vision, knowing that Satan goes about as an angel of light, how do I know it's not of Satan? He's no dumbbell. He's not going to come against me with a red suit and a forked tail and a pair of horns. He's going to look like Christ. He's going to look as much like Christ as he possibly can. And so how do I know that I'm not being conned by him? The only reason I know I'm not being conned by him is to not listen to him, because the Bible says that he goes about as an angel of light. And the Bible says we're not to add to the words of this book. So if I received that vision tonight, I would be on my knees praying, "Oh God, have mercy on me. What happened to me? How did I ever become this kind of a prey? How come Satan became this interested in me?" I would reject it out of hand.
Here God has given us this magnificent Bible, and there is no individual in the whole wide world who has really come to understand it altogether, because it is the matchless riches of the revelation of God's grace, and no one has plumbed the depths of the riches of the Bible. And here it is to read, and every word that you read, you know absolutely, this is the Word of God. God has given us the instruction to compare spiritual things with spiritual, that is, we let the Bible be its own interpreter. And as we search the Bible and compare one part of the Bible with another part, we can begin to get more and more information as to what God is really teaching. It's just a marvellous, marvellous experience in getting into the Word of God. And virtually nobody is doing this. And yet my, how entrancing it is, how intriguing it is, that maybe God would bring a vision or something else. And frankly, I want nothing to do with visions or voices. I don't want to be conned by Satan. I want to be absolutely obedient to the Word of God.
And we live in a free land. If someone else would rather take a chance with visions and voices, and if he's intrigued by signs and wonders, fine. We live in a free land. He can do this. But from my vantage point of studying the Bible, I know that it's not the gospel of the Bible. And if you don't have the true Gospel, then you don't have salvation. And frankly, eternal damnation is a pretty long time, and it's pretty awful. And I wouldn't want to take any chances that I might end up in hell, because I'm following the wrong gospel.
CALLER: OK. In other words, you are certain that you are saved.
HC: I'm absolutely certain I am saved.
CALLER: Because you have studied the Bible, and it fits your beliefs. Your interpretations fit your beliefs, and so you are certain of them.
HC: It does not fit my interpretation. I have studied the Bible, and I have come to the point where I am ready to surrender my will, my interpretation, my anything, to the Bible itself. The Bible is the authority. And any time I can learn, it's going to be from the scriptures, not from my mind. It's going to be from the scriptures. And the more I study the Bible, the more I'm going to learn. It is the Word of God. It is what I bow to altogether.
CALLER: What I mean is, what you read in the Bible substantiates what you believe, and so therefore you are convinced that you are saved. Is that basically what we're talking about? I'm trying to find out for myself.
HC: The Bible teaches that we're sinners, we're under the wrath of God, that we deserve to go to hell, and except for God's grace that's where we go, that if we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the one who has paid for our sins, if we find in our life an earnest desire to do God's will, not for merit, but because we love God and because we find this earnest desire in our hearts, then we can know that we know Him. And so when I find these characteristics in my life, that I really believe this with all my heart and have these desires within me, then I know, based upon the Biblical statement, that I am saved.
CALLER: I agree with basically everything that you've said there. And I don't believe my faith in God is any less than what yours is. But I do find that I disagree with you on some points of the Bible. And this causes me some problems because . . .
HC: Yes, but it depends on what points you're disagreeing on. If you're disagreeing on the authority itself, if you believe that there is more to divine revelation than the Bible alone and in its entirety, then you have a different gospel than I have. And of course that's your privilege. On the other hand, if you agree with me that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the divine Word, and yet you disagree on this point or that point, then it's a matter that both of us have to keep studying. And if we keep studying, since truth is one piece, we are going to come closer and closer to each other. No one can have truth unless he has truth; and if two people have truth then they agree with each other.
CALLER: I believe that I am totally open to the will of God and obedient. And I do believe that the Bible is the one and only true Word of God. But I do believe that the Bible does leave some space for directions from God, specific directions from God, at a time period later on in the history of man.
HC: By that statement, if you are referring to an articulated or a verbalized statement, through a dream or a vision or a voice, or whatever, then you are negating your first statement, where you say that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the divine Word. Effectively you're saying, 'But I believe there still is additional divine revelation.' And then you by definition have a different authority.